Bret Stephens: Gail, happy Almost Independence Day. In the spirit of the holiday: Is America toast?
Gail Collins: Well gee, Bret, happy Almost Independence Day back. Hope you’re not planning to celebrate by, um, shooting things off.
Bret: Only my mouth. As usual.
Gail: Seriously, please elaborate. If you’re thinking of the Supreme Court, I’m happy to join in any hand-wringing. But somehow I suspect you’ve got a different vision of doom.
Bret: It won’t surprise you that I’ve been pretty happy with the court’s rulings this term, which I’m sure we’ll get to in a moment. But what I mean is the brokenness of almost every institution I can think of, a thought I’m borrowing from Alana Newhouse, the editor of Tablet magazine. Congress: broken. Public education: broken. The I.R.S.: broken. The Roman Catholic Church: broken. The immigration system: broken. Cities: broken. Civil discourse: broken. Families: broken. Race relations: broken.
And the most broken thing of all: public trust. Trust in government, in news media, in police, in the scientific establishment. There’s a ton of scholarly research showing that when societies become “low-trust,” like in Lebanon or Brazil, they tend to fare poorly.
Gail: I know that many very smart people are in the throes of despair, but I just can’t get there. People have been complaining about the schools since the beginning of time — and that’s a good thing, you certainly don’t want to be complacent about education.
Bret: Did you know that The Times won a Pulitzer Prize for Public Service in 1944 for reporting on how shockingly ignorant American college freshmen were about U.S. history? And them wuz the good ol’ days.
Gail: The I.R.S. is broken only to the extent that Republicans in Congress are refusing to supply funding to make the tax system work.
Bret: And because the agency runs with the sort of peerless efficiency we generally expect from federal bureaucracies.
Gail: And let’s see — as a longtime fallen-away Catholic, I don’t think the church is going to fix itself until we have both women priests and married priests. But it’s not as if it’s more broken now than it was throughout my life.
Bret: I defer to you on this one. Just trying to think of the last time I read a story about a Catholic priest that didn’t involve child molestation or an effort by the church hierarchy to cover it up.
Gail: The cities: they aren’t broken — most of them just need a whole lot more federal aid for housing and public safety. And gee, federal gun laws that crack down on villains from buying weapons down South and illegally shipping them to gun-control states like New York.
I could go on, but I don’t want to monopolize our civil discourse. Are you really so super-pessimistic?
Bret: It’s easy to get carried away with gloom, and America has a history of bouncing back from bouts of depression and disorder. But I find it really hard to feel any optimism when Donald Trump seems to be cruising to the Republican renomination and Joe Biden is generating excitement among Democrats the way a colonoscopy generates excitement among people turning 50: Something your doctor says you must do, but only because the potential alternative is lethal.
Gail: Oh gosh, Bret, now whenever I look at Joe Biden, I’m going to think “colonoscopy president.”
You know I’m very sorry he decided to run again and put a damper on all the promising younger Democrats who might have been great options to replace him. But still, he’s been a good president. Our problem isn’t really on the Democratic side. The Trump-remodeled Republican Party is one thing I’d put on a list of national disasters.
Bret: Don’t forget it’s also an international disaster.
Gail: Know you’re as down on Donald as I am. Should we talk Supreme Court? The big decisions — affirmative action, gay rights, student loans. Am I right guessing you agreed with all three?
Bret: Well, don’t forget the court striking down the independent state legislature theory in Moore v. Harper, in which three conservative judges joined with three liberals to uphold the right of state judiciaries to have a say in how state legislatures draw congressional districts and conduct elections. Or the Counterman v. Colorado case, in which four conservative justices joined Elena Kagan, Sonia Sotomayor and Ketanji Brown Jackson in a 7-2 decision protecting free-speech rights. This may be a conservative court, but it’s not a MAGA court.
Gail: Can see the Trump campaign calls …
Bret: Regarding the cases you mentioned, I think even the Biden administration knew deep down that its effort to forgive billions in student loans without action from Congress was legally doubtful. And I don’t have to agree with a web designer’s religious beliefs about same-sex marriage to accept that she has a free-speech right not to participate in something she finds morally objectionable.
Gail: How would you feel about a wedding dress designer who refused to take business from a mixed-race couple because her own moral beliefs are against Black people being able to marry white people?
Bret: Well, obviously I’d find it abhorrent. But this current case is different, because it turned on whether a business owner could be obliged to design a website for a same-sex couple. That’s clearly a matter of speech, not the identity of the customer.
Gail: This case comes out of Colorado, which has a very specific state law prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. Once again our Supremes have made it clear that they’re only going to rule for stuff they like — to hell with details like legality.
Bret: I don’t think either of us question the right of the Supreme Court to overturn any state laws that violate fundamental constitutional rights, even if we don’t like the views of the people claiming those rights. As for the affirmative action case, I think it was one of the best decisions in the court’s history. I know you, um, dissent ….
Gail: We had a big argument about that one last week. Having a diverse student body or workplace isn’t just a good goal, it’s critical to building and maintaining a truly free and equal society.
Bret: Sure, provided diversity isn’t achieved by giving advantages to some racial groups at the expense of others — in the Harvard and U.N.C. cases, Asian Americans were put at a significant disadvantage in the admissions process simply on account of their race.
Gail: I’m still hopeful business leaders and school administrators will be able to work to the same end by concentrating on other factors — like, say, looking for applicants who have been able to overcome an impoverished upbringing.
Bret: We agree on this. And, as our colleague David French pointed out in a terrific column last week, Harvard could have long ago redesigned its admissions process to favor students on account of socioeconomic status rather than race and achieved roughly the same kind of diversity without putting race at the center of their admissions calculus.
Gail: We’ll see. Still hate the idea that striving to have a student body or work force that’s racially diverse is some kind of mortal sin.
Can we talk presidential politics for a minute? Feel kinda guilty bringing it up, given that the nominating conventions are still more than a year away, but it does continue to fascinate me.
Bret: By all means ….
Gail: This week I noticed that the proudly middle-middle class Gov. Ron DeSantis got $1.25 million for his political memoir. Also that he’d just signed a bill allowing Florida roads to be built with a radioactive material.
Bret: Phosphogypsum, a byproduct of making fertilizer, which is now kept in mountainous stacks across Florida. Used for construction in Europe, Australia and Japan to no apparent ill effect. As for the memoir, Andrew Cuomo, the former New York governor, got $5.1 million for his book, shortly before he completely disgraced himself. I’d say the Florida governor’s advance is pretty modest in the scheme of things.
Gail: I retreat. For the moment. Anyhow, the DeSantis stories are just silly details in a race when the Republican front-runner keeps getting indicted for major crimes. Now this is supposed to be your flock, Bret. How do you keep focused?
Bret: Gail, I read about the Republican Party the way I would about a former friend with whom I was once close, but who tragically turned to a life of debauchery and crime in his demented old age.
Gail: Is that why you’re feeling so down on everything, from the cities to religion?
Bret: Might be. Hard to feel optimistic, politically, when you don’t really have a team to root for. But maybe you’re right, and I’m too depressed about America. Still would much prefer to live here than Britain with its sky-high inflation. Or France with its riots. Or Mexico, with its corruption and creeping authoritarianism. Or Canada, with its Justin Trudeau.
So I’m back where we started. Happy Fourth of July!
The Times is committed to publishing a diversity of letters to the editor. We’d like to hear what you think about this or any of our articles. Here are some tips. And here’s our email: letters@nytimes.com.
Follow The New York Times Opinion section on Facebook, Twitter (@NYTopinion) and Instagram.